Let's talk about beliefs.

Spinning off from the vent thread, inspired by Sideromelane's post on furry whatevers.

I find the subject fascinating, beliefs. Whether it be talking about religion, superstitious, political, or personal, I absolutely love talking about them. However, I can be a pain, because I very purposefully take the opposite stance, normally known as Devil's Advocate. Which, in most cases, such as religion and superstitious, is pure logic, something I'm far more comfortable with. It is amazing how people have to fall back to 'faith' to defend their stances. However, when it comes to personal, the tables are turned. As those who vaguely know me already know, my personal beliefs are skewed, for reasons I'm currently hunting down with the help of a professional. But! Despite how wrong that I know my personal beliefs are (intellectually, understand), I also love defending them. Pointing out a hole in my logic does not, and in my opinion, should not, immediately cause you to change beliefs, merely to seek to cover that hole. If one cannot do so in a logical manner (such as introducing ideas or concepts that don't have logical holes in them), then and only then should one change their beliefs.

So! I invite people to share their beliefs, poke holes in other people's beliefs, and go back to defend your own! Bear in mind, I intend this to be a light-hearted discussion.



I'll start, I suppose.

I am an atheist, meaning I have no religious beliefs. There is no god. As far as the afterlife is concerned, it does not exist. As far as souls go, they do not exist. Speaking of life's purpose, there is none. Talking about the beginning of the universe, I have no idea how it started, although evidence points towards a Big Bang event. As for the end of the universe, either entropy will win out and there will be nothing, or gravity will pull everything back together and there will be a Big Crunch.

I have no superstitions. There exists in my clothes nothing 'lucky'. I have nothing to chant when something happens to ensure something else happens. I don't believe in the supernatural, such as ghosts or other specters. I admit there is a possibility of alien life on other planets, but none that have contacted us in any way shape or form. Horoscopes mean nothing, and I have no lucky number (over the years, upon being asked what my lucky number was, I have invariably answered with my age).

Politically, I am apathetic. I honestly don't care who wins where until it affects me (see below). However, when I do take an interest in a given subject, I tend to lean left more than right, using American terms.

Going on to personal beliefs... ok. I am more important than everyone else on the planet. I am capable of being demonstrably better at anything I choose, given time to practice. Things, generally speaking, don't matter until they directly affect me, and thus there is no reason to act on something until it has. I am a misanthrope, meaning that I hate humanity, save friends and family. This has lead me to the furry culture, because it is easier for me to relate and talk to you people when I don't (emotionally) connect that you're human. I get along great with, empathize with, and identify best with cats, which is why I've chosen the fursona of a yellow tabby.



There we go! Share some or all of those beliefs, or just poke holes in mine. Either one!

Oooh, touchy subject there I gotta tell you. Adversely, I am a Christian, and I don't care much for politics...

Christian eh? Which flavor? There's so many.

Don't really belong to any specific group...non-denominational I guess. My church is Missouri-Synod Lutheran so I guess that kind of applies.

Hm, I dunno about specific lutheran beliefs, so I'll just go with the general ones that you haven't specified.

As a christian, do you believe that god created the earth 6000 years ago? (Or, to rephrase, how literally do you take the bible?)
As a christian, do you dismiss evolution? (Or, to rephrase again, do you believe in Intelligent Design to the exclusion of anything else?)
As a christian, do you think abortions should be allowed, despite the church's staunch pro-life stance? And let's go with a similar question for the death penalty (I love it when people realize their pro-life stance and their pro-death penalty stance conflict)

I believe that the bible is open to interpretation...they have people who study that kind of thing but personally, I believe that it may have been 6,000 years...except years by the standards of the natives in that time period. Keep in mind that the bible tells how people like Abraham and such lived to be 700, 800 years old. Now it does say that they lived unnaturally long lives but I think they measured years in a different way back then. I mean, Abraham's no Yoda (bad analogy I know ) but anyways...as for Intelligent Design I do believe that we were created by God. I also do not believe in Darwin's theory of evolution. I am knowledgeable to the fact that species had to change and adapt to survive to suit their respective climates and this may have brought some VARIATIONS to some species. However, I do not believe that they 'evolved' (and I use this term loosely) into other species least of all into humans. That is where I stand on that issue, and as for the last point...I forgot. Hold on. Ah, abortions. I do not support abortion although I am not a fanatic like some denominations are. I believe that killing unborn babies is wrong, but really- if they don't want it in the first place people should stop fscking without protection. But I digress... All in all, I'm not one of those "shove-it-down-your-throat-you're-gonna-burn-in-hell-so-repent" Christians, but can't see how people think that God didn't create all this. I mean, look around you! They think this came from a 'Big Bang' out of nothingness and just 'happened' to form here along with all these diverse animals and plants and human beings? I'm just saying... Anyways, I'm done- my rant is over... Comment as you wish.

I'm spiritual but I do not belive in a all powerful all knowing god. I'm liberal with my ideas but that does not mean that all my politics are liberal. Im willing to hear out another persons point of view even if I think its out of this world, sometimes those have the nasty habits of being true.

Yeah, I agree with Keyou-bi: I take in other's viewpoints and respect other's spiritual beliefs while defending my own. But really I'm not partial to debating religious beliefs- I'm more of an observer myself.

*rubs hands* Excellent.

Nilo Kaal wrote:I believe that the bible is open to interpretation...they have people who study that kind of thing

I do believe that they are called theologists.

but personally, I believe that it may have been 6,000 years...except years by the standards of the natives in that time period. Keep in mind that the bible tells how people like Abraham and such lived to be 700, 800 years old. Now it does say that they lived unnaturally long lives but I think they measured years in a different way back then. I mean, Abraham's no Yoda (bad analogy I know )

Hm, I've honestly never heard that argument before, and I do lurk various forums where this subject is debated frequently. Good job on that point. However! The average lifespan of the time was around 25-30, I believe. Since the Earth has, by in large, not changed the length of its years, it is difficult to imagine how primitive people divided the year (as we see it now) into so many divisions that someone lives 700 to 800 'years'. I tried though. I tried seasons, but still then they wouldn't have reached 700, let alone 800. I tried weeks, but then they wouldn't even reach the average lifespan, by our reckoning of years. Similar problems occurred for days. Months has something going for it, but I doubt that anyone would be silly enough to reckon months as years, as people were generally aware of the seasons. So, you have a point, but it is only valid by a really far stretch.

but anyways...as for Intelligent Design I do believe that we were created by God. I also do not believe in Darwin's theory of evolution. I am knowledgeable to the fact that species had to change and adapt to survive to suit their respective climates and this may have brought some VARIATIONS to some species. However, I do not believe that they 'evolved' (and I use this term loosely) into other species least of all into humans.

Now, I honestly find this very interesting whenever I encounter it. I don't know what inspires people to discount science, logic, and reason. Macro-Evolution is widely accepted precisely because it can be readily demonstrated as micro-evolution, which is what you just professed 'believing' in. Hm, let's see. I'll start with ID. Now, I have no problems with people believing in god, no matter how wrong I think they are. So as far as ID is concerned, I don't see why people can't accept ID and evolution side-by-side. Could it be that a god created everything, and life specifically via evolution. I realize that you can not think that because of your 6000 world view, but consider that as a viable alternative. Onto evolution itself... uh... augh, I can barely reconcile believing in micro-evolution but not macro. So, I'm going to assume you don't believe in dinosaurs, so I'll skip that (really tired of the 'god did it as a test of faith' argument) and move onto human evolution. Hm, let's look at the brain, shall we? Did you know that the brain is essentially three parts? The hind brain, which is sometimes referred to as the 'reptilian' brain because it handles reflexes, motion, etc. We move onto the mid brain, sometimes called the mammalian brain, which controls emotions and such. Both of these types are found in all vertebrates. Most interesting is the forebrain, which is found in humans. The forebrain handles abstract thought and reasoning. Without it, we would be just as well off as any other animal with no inherent defenses; extinct. Now, most interestingly, humans are not the only species to have a forebrain. We are, in fact, the only species to have a highly developed forebrain, but not the only one to have one. You can probably guess the other species. Yeah, apes. Not all monkeys, specifically apes (and, I think, chimps. Not to sure, I'd have to crack open my psych textbook). We are even beginning to see further development of ape's forebrains, which would very likely lead to another human-like species, given time. And you know what else? We have fossil evidence of earlier stages of man. But of course, that's just a test, right. Ok, so it's just coincidence that we share so much DNA with apes?

That is where I stand on that issue, and as for the last point...I forgot. Hold on.

I call foul. You don't know where you stand on an issue? Are you sure you have a solid belief on it?

EDIT:

Ah, abortions. I do not support abortion although I am not a fanatic like some denominations are. I believe that killing unborn babies is wrong, but really- if they don't want it in the first place people should stop fscking without protection. But I digress...

Hm, in all cases? Such as rape and incest? Can't get an abortion then? What about when it's harmful to the mother, perhaps fatally? Where is that line drawn?

As you may have gathered, I am pro-death. I use the harsh term that pro-life people use to degrade the position of pro-choice because, well, I am. I don't care about the death of anybody except my own. But, more tactfully put, I do think that women should be given the choice to abort children before a given date which is before the second trimester, I believe. Abortion is a hard decision on any person. I really, really, really doubt that there is anybody who sleeps around without protection, getting abortions all the time because they can. It's just a mistake, just like the pregnancy. A stupid mistake, to be sure, but is the life of someone who doesn't exist yet somehow worth more than the life of someone who does exist?

All in all, I'm not one of those "shove-it-down-your-throat-you're-gonna-burn-in-hell-so-repent" Christians, but can't see how people think that God didn't create all this. I mean, look around you! They think this came from a 'Big Bang' out of nothingness and just 'happened' to form here along with all these diverse animals and plants and human beings?

Yep, that's exactly, more or less, what I think happened. Pure and random chance. The universe is freaking huge. The odd of a planet not only being capable of developing life but actually having life is astronomical. But guess what? There are enough planets. Probability wise, there must be a planet that developed life by chance. And you know what? I think we're it. It's possible there's another one, out there, somewhere, with intelligent life on it, but... we might be it.

Keyou-bi wrote:I'm spiritual but I do not belive in a all powerful all knowing god. I'm liberal with my ideas but that does not mean that all my politics are liberal. Im willing to hear out another persons point of view even if I think its out of this world, sometimes those have the nasty habits of being true.

Out of curiosity, what does that mean, spiritual? What do you believe in, specifically?

And, which of those wild, out-of-this-world points o' views have turned out to be true?

Keep reading- I added more.

Nilo Kaal wrote:Keep reading- I added more.

'

K. So did I. Now, onto the responses?

Heh heh. I like you- very intelligent and you brinng up some interesting points to these things. Like life-or-death situations and rape regarding abortion, I believe these things to be dealt with differently depending on the situation. As I posted earlier, I really prefer not to debate religion. However, don't get me wrong, I'm not a pussy who's afraid of getting disproved. I just think, 'to each his own' is good enough. You've brought up other viewpoints that I've not seen before but are pretty convincing. Although I still stand firm on my beliefs, however baseless you deem them to be. I just believe that not everything can be proved with science, and that's where stereotypical faith steps in.

Grey, you have stated that you believe in Magick before, but in this thread you state that you don't believe in the supernatural. Explain?

There are too many things in the this world that dont quite make sence. I belive in ghosts, but not out of the sake of a fear of death. I belive that there are things that are more like spirits that have always been. Whether or not they are a manifestation of a belief or a belief in a manifestation is another question. Science can explain a lot but even science makes some prity outrageous claims about the world that have yet to be proven. Some even hint at things that would make a religious right winger say "SEE I TOLD YOU SO!"

As for things that were completely nuts that have been proven true? It was not long ago that some crazy patent clerk said "Hey yah know that soace and time are the same and are bent by objects?" or some crazy englishmen said "There are these things that bend space and time so much that it rips the fabric and renders things into nothingness!" or some crazy group of people from Boston who said "Hey, there are these things out there that produce the same energy as ten trillion giant stars and are the size of galaxies!"

BTW that was Albert Einstien and General Relitivity, Steven Hawkings and Black Holes, and (insert the name of the astonomy group here) and Blazars.

Teasealot wrote:Grey, you have stated that you believe in Magick before, but in this thread you state that you don't believe in the supernatural. Explain?

There's a difference between the way I RP and my real-life beliefs. Yes, given an RP setting, I much prefer the world of magic, mana, and fantasy.

However, as much as I'd like it to be true, magic does not exist in the real world.

Keyou-bi wrote:There are too many things in the this world that dont quite make sence. I belive in ghosts, but not out of the sake of a fear of death. I belive that there are things that are more like spirits that have always been. Whether or not they are a manifestation of a belief or a belief in a manifestation is another question. Science can explain a lot but even science makes some prity outrageous claims about the world that have yet to be proven. Some even hint at things that would make a religious right winger say "SEE I TOLD YOU SO!"

Like... what? I used to be a physics major, and I still study it as a hobby, and I can't remember anything that would make any religious right-winger say I-told-you-so.

As for things that were completely nuts that have been proven true? It was not long ago that some crazy patent clerk said "Hey yah know that soace and time are the same and are bent by objects?" or some crazy englishmen said "There are these things that bend space and time so much that it rips the fabric and renders things into nothingness!" or some crazy group of people from Boston who said "Hey, there are these things out there that produce the same energy as ten trillion giant stars and are the size of galaxies!"

Ah, so you refer to the drastic changes in science, not something weird like conspiracy theories. Black holes, by the way, don't render things into nothingness, they compress all matter into a singularity. That conservation of mass thing is pretty important in physics, I hear. (Well, actually, it's not. It bugs me to no end, but the only 'conservation of..." law that isn't broken by quantum physics is conservation of momentum. Which is a long rant about quantum physics that doesn't really have a place here unless someone asks me about it.)

Niko Laal wrote: I just believe that not everything can be proved with science, and that's where stereotypical faith steps in.

And that's where I disagree most vehemently. Everything has a reason, everything can be explained. We can't explain everything right now, but eventually we will. There is no reason to have a god figure anymore; the human race has enough knowledge now to not need that psychological crutch.

I believe in ghosts and Magick, I also believe in Life on other worlds (though I don't blame it for not talking to us), parallel/tangent dimensions, and that everything has a soul (even machines and buildings).
Both me and Blackwolf share a belief system that I call Gaian Shamanism. Basically the world is a living entity and everyone has a personal main totem which you have to find out by yourself, but you also have a number of "advisor" totems. Most of the totems are animals, but they can also be ancestral, elemental, plant and rarely technological. These totems are always near you and they try to keep you safe, just most people are deaf to their words. They also speak for Terra/Gaia or whatever you call the world, because humanity has (on the most part) lost the ability to hear her.
Yes, I'm a Pagan and yes, I've been called a witch, which I take as a compliment. I don't push my religion down other people's throats, and I don't condemn anyone else's views. If they ask my opinion, I give it. I have no problem with Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Taoists, Maoists, Wicca or any other religion, I do have problems with people belonging to those faiths trying to tell me I'm following the wrong religion/god, but the problem is with the people, not the faith. It is my choice, my belief, not theirs.

I find it interesting how some people try to defend their 'religions' when nothing can be outright proven- they are all just theories and beliefs. Okay, say that what Grey was talking about is true and that most everything has an explanation, it just is proven over time. If one or parts of these beliefs are proven 'scientifically true' what happens to everyone else's beliefs? Do they persist with their respective beliefs? Or would most conform to the newly proven religion just based off of scientific 'fact'? To those who would not, I don't see this as arrogance but resolve to stand true to your faith despite opposition. Even you, Grey, have faith in your theories just as any person with a religion, because none can be proven- yet,as you say.

Nilo Kaal wrote: Even you, Grey, have faith in your theories just as any person with a religion, because none can be proven- yet,as you say.

Slanderous lies, say I. I have a handy chart that covers this scenario.



Faith is not a prerequisite of science and logic. I have no 'faith', and I don't 'believe' in science. Science is a religion in much the same way bald is a hair color. Sure, you can make the connection, there are similarities... but ultimately, no.

So what happens if something comes up that blatantly contradicts everything you've been trying to support?

Revolution!

And then you get a new idea, gather evidence for the new idea, and create a new theory that incorporates the new evidence.

I thought that was pretty clearly explained by that chart. But it would be very very very [insert many repetitions of the word "very"] difficult to discover any sort of evidence that completely contradicted any scientific theory. It takes a lot of work to be generally accepted by scientists.

On the subject of religion, anyone here a fan or even watched Red Dwarf ? specifically the epsiode "Better than Life"
During the section with the hologramical newsreader theres a intresting joke about a lost page of the bible being found
What if the bible was a work of fiction taken as a religious book ?
Raises a few questions doesn't it ?

Think I'll back out for now...observing is much more fun anyways

Blackwolf wrote:What if the bible was a work of fiction taken as a religious book ?

... "if"?

Nilo Kaal wrote:Think I'll back out for now...observing is much more fun anyways

Quitter. ;3